Metalworking |
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"To do good lathe work the machine must be kept clean, oiled and tight. If you can't do that sell the lathe and buy a shovel instead."
The Screw Cutting Lathe, James F. Hobart, 1907.
Methinks Shakespeare was a machinist:
"Parting is such sweet sorrow, that I shall say good night till it be morrow."
"Caveat Emptor" is Latin for "Made in China." – Dan Sullivan
“Steel can be any shape you want if you are skilled enough, and any shape but the one you want if you are not.” – Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
As a compulsive slob, I definitely run in cycles. I have a few selected things I don't let get out of hand - my ways stay clean, anything that is dangerous I take care of immediately. If I get involved in something, I let the tools pile up and the clutter build. Then I have days where I don't feel like turning things on - maybe a little tired, not quite feeling sharp. Those are the days that I turn on some music and clean...whatever gets in my way. I guess I use it as my way to feel productive without pushing myself when I shouldn't. I've even resorted all the tools in my 3 toolboxes that are in different locations because the tools are migratory. But a day of handling tools is better than a day you don't.
So....in a fantastic bout of justification, letting my shop get messy is good for safety reasons. How about that?
Fine Woodworking has a great book on shop safety. Obviously it is woodworking oriented but most people who had bad accidents in the shop knew they should have stopped five minutes earlier. I take that to heart. If I don't feel good about it, I don't do it.Period. It is a hobby and projects can wait. Period. Exclamation mark.
I'm using my 11x24 Logan as a wood lathe at the moment. I've promised it a thorough cleaning when I'm done. I had an old craftsman wood lathe (worth maybe $20) and the tool rest moved right over in place of the compound. I'm sure you could kludge something for your lathe. It has to be adjustable in height and angle. The surface of the tool rest should be either an edge or round to give you more control.
Stuff I've learned:
- it is really cool to be able to move the carriage with the lathe controls to position the rest.
- variable speed is really nice on a wood lathe
- collets are very nice to use on spindle turning
- Always use a tailstock support
- Metalworking chucks with outside jaws are very scary when your hands get close to them. I wouldn't do it without gluing a block to the bottom of the work to keep me away from it. Or use inside jaws. I can almost hear the crunch of bone as my knuckles get near it.
- I'm definitely going to set up one of those poor man's turrets in the tailstock for drilling.
- It pays to think about how wood is different from metal. Round isn't necessarily round, it is much more springy, since you are feeding the tool by hand it is easy to have the tool catch.
“Why must one wear lipstick when checking interference fit?
This hobby is much different than I anticipated.....”
Larry on the 7x12 Minilathe yahoo group
Answer from Rick: I always wondered about that myself but, I figured since Mert does it there must be a good reason.
Another answer: It's just one of the sacrifices we make as machinists. You do know about turning nude, I assume?
For you eyeglass wearers:
One of the best things I've ever done for myself is have a set of bifocal safety glasses made that focus at 24" for the main part, 12" for the bifocal. First, they are nicer than putting safety glasses over my regular glasses and second, I found myself tipping my head up to use the close focus in my regular glasses. Now I look straight at my work.
I use vinegar for most of my light rust issues. The best stuff I've ever used was XO-Rust by Kano labs. Tools soaked in that came out a bit gray from being stripped and had to be oiled right away or they would start rusting - no oxide to protect them.
I think that the lesson here is that when we buy Chinese import metalworking machinery, the mindset has to be that it is a kit. If you want it working perfectly when you get it, buy a good older lathe from a reputable machine rebuilder or a used lathe from someone upgrading.
Keeping the perspective of the value we are getting for our money, a bit of sweat equity is realistic. Of course if something clear and obvious is wrong, the dealer should replace the parts. From what I have seen, this is where the better resellers like Grizzly are consistent and the lower end like HF are not. I'm not saying that you can't get good service from a local HF store or even get help on the phone from HF, it just lacks consistency. The price you pay for the extra savings.
If you do get a local HF store manager who is helpful, be sure to let them know how much you appreciate the real service you get.
I did some wood turning on my Logan 11x24 until I converted another lathe for that purpose. Some things I learned:
#1 biggest - Lubrication is different. My metal lathe has way oil on the bed, oil everywhere like holy water. My wood lathe I use one of the dry lubes since wood dust will wick up with the oil, make a mess under the carriage and generally gum up gears. Be sure all gears and lead screws are well covered. Expect a full cleaning every time you go from wood to metal and back. Wish you bought two lathes, huh?
#2 - metalworking chucks are dangerous to fingers. In woodworking, your fingers are much nearer the chuck. The jaws are almost invisible at higher speeds. Look at Penn State or one of the other woodworking catalogs to see the difference.
#3 - you need room to move the tools around. I've got a set of mini tools that would probably work well on the c0 - my bigger lathe tools would be hard to use.
#4 - Be sure what you use for a tool rest is adjustable and sturdy. You don't want it to move into the wood - things happen fast and your hands are right there.
#5 - Woodworking tools must be very sharp. You have to learn how to sharpen. Also, many woodworking tools are sold unsharpened.
#6 - Wood flexes more than metal. Expect to be using the tailstock a lot.
#7 - Unless you do just pens, you will really like the variable speed since you will turn a lot of different diameters.
That's all the motorcycle is, a system of concepts worked out in steel. There's no part in it, no shape in it, that is not out of someone's mind — number three tappet is right on too. One more to go. This had better be it — .I've noticed that people who have never worked with steel have trouble seeing this...that the motorcycle is primarily a mental phenomenon. They associate metal with given shapes...pipes, rods, girders, tools, parts...all of them fixed and inviolable, and think of it as primarily physical. But a person who does machining or foundry work or forge work or welding sees "steel" as having no shape at all. Steel can be any shape you want if you are skilled enough, and any shape but the one you want if you are not. Shapes, like this tappet, are what you arrive at, what you give to the steel. Steel has no more shape than this old pile of dirt on the engine here. These shapes are all out of someone's mind. That's important to see. The steel? Hell, even the steel is out of someone's mind. There's no steel in nature. Anyone from the Bronze Age could have told you that. All nature has is a potential for steel. There's nothing else there. But what's "potential"? That's also in someone's mind! — Ghosts"
Buying used equipment
When I look at used equipment, the first question is 'do I want it?' It seems obvious but sometimes I get wrapped up in the bargaining and forget that I really want a QCGB. If I don't want it, am I going to try to sell it for a profit? Part it out and keep some of the accessories? Is it really worth the effort? Does it just seem like fun but I don't really need it?
Once I know my motivations, I try to decide whether the condition is reasonable. Assuming that I still want it, there are a couple of paths. If it is 'make an offer' and the person doesn't know what they have, I usually offer about half of what it is worth on the open market, explain that it might be worth more with some work. I figure that they are getting a reasonable price without doing the research and I am getting a bargain. I never lowball someone who doesn't know what they have. Besides, if they think you are ripping them off, they can easily walk away. Once you offer $100 for something they think might be worth $1000, they aren't going to believe any offer from you.
If there is a price on something, it can be reasonable or not reasonable. If it is too high and the person knows what they have, you are probably done. If it is too high and they don't have a clue, it can be worth educating them. Honestly. If you show them flaws like a worn bed, an honest person would prefer to sell it to someone who understands the flaws than to take advantage of someone who doesn't. So, I make what I think is a reasonable offer, usually leaving some room to compromise with them. I almost always pay in cash and make it clear that I'm ready to close the deal and pay them immediately.
A wise friend of mine (who was selling used cars at the time) told be a 'good deal' is when both parties are satisfied. It can be a good deal, personalized service, whatever, but they both get what they want. It can be a great deal from one point of view (I bought one of my Logans for $175) as long as the other person is satisfied. I'm not one to walk away from a great deal but I didn't counteroffer and he was satisfied. He even tossed in some extra stuff after the deal was done.
Lanturn/Rocker Tool Posts
As a new lathe user, I have to admire the rocker toolpost design (although you couldn't pry my QCTP out of my dead hands). There is an implied understanding of the tool bit geometry and required cutting angles that says a lot to me about the expertise of the machinist. Think about it. As you position the tool you are adjusting the overhang, tool height, relief angle all at once and very dependent on the grind of the tool. Me, I like consistent carbide inserts that are always at the right height in my QCTP. I'll use a honed HSS cutter (in the QCTP) for final clean cuts for things I want to look pretty, but that is set up once also.
The same is true with DROs. Machinists have a relationship with backlash that I don't have the time or inclination to develop.
Credit Card Purchases
Remember, in the U.S. if you buy with a credit card you ultimately have control over the transaction. You can call the CC company within a reasonable time (30-45 days?) and state that you didn't get what you ordered in working condition, you have tried to rectify the problem (keep dates of the conversations and emails) and you would like to withhold payment to the vendor.
That simple. The amount is credited back to you and the vendor has the money withdrawn from their account.
Now you are dealing from a better position. You can be helpful and rebox their broken saw, you can offer to send photos of the packaging if they want to pursue a shipping claim, you will swap in replacement parts that they ship, etc, but they won't get the money hold released until you have a working saw.
I don't do this unless a reasonable attempt to solve the problem fails but it does work.
The Screw Cutting Lathe, James F. Hobart, 1907.
Methinks Shakespeare was a machinist:
"Parting is such sweet sorrow, that I shall say good night till it be morrow."
"Caveat Emptor" is Latin for "Made in China." – Dan Sullivan
“Steel can be any shape you want if you are skilled enough, and any shape but the one you want if you are not.” – Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
As a compulsive slob, I definitely run in cycles. I have a few selected things I don't let get out of hand - my ways stay clean, anything that is dangerous I take care of immediately. If I get involved in something, I let the tools pile up and the clutter build. Then I have days where I don't feel like turning things on - maybe a little tired, not quite feeling sharp. Those are the days that I turn on some music and clean...whatever gets in my way. I guess I use it as my way to feel productive without pushing myself when I shouldn't. I've even resorted all the tools in my 3 toolboxes that are in different locations because the tools are migratory. But a day of handling tools is better than a day you don't.
So....in a fantastic bout of justification, letting my shop get messy is good for safety reasons. How about that?
Fine Woodworking has a great book on shop safety. Obviously it is woodworking oriented but most people who had bad accidents in the shop knew they should have stopped five minutes earlier. I take that to heart. If I don't feel good about it, I don't do it.Period. It is a hobby and projects can wait. Period. Exclamation mark.
I'm using my 11x24 Logan as a wood lathe at the moment. I've promised it a thorough cleaning when I'm done. I had an old craftsman wood lathe (worth maybe $20) and the tool rest moved right over in place of the compound. I'm sure you could kludge something for your lathe. It has to be adjustable in height and angle. The surface of the tool rest should be either an edge or round to give you more control.
Stuff I've learned:
- it is really cool to be able to move the carriage with the lathe controls to position the rest.
- variable speed is really nice on a wood lathe
- collets are very nice to use on spindle turning
- Always use a tailstock support
- Metalworking chucks with outside jaws are very scary when your hands get close to them. I wouldn't do it without gluing a block to the bottom of the work to keep me away from it. Or use inside jaws. I can almost hear the crunch of bone as my knuckles get near it.
- I'm definitely going to set up one of those poor man's turrets in the tailstock for drilling.
- It pays to think about how wood is different from metal. Round isn't necessarily round, it is much more springy, since you are feeding the tool by hand it is easy to have the tool catch.
“Why must one wear lipstick when checking interference fit?
This hobby is much different than I anticipated.....”
Larry on the 7x12 Minilathe yahoo group
Answer from Rick: I always wondered about that myself but, I figured since Mert does it there must be a good reason.
Another answer: It's just one of the sacrifices we make as machinists. You do know about turning nude, I assume?
For you eyeglass wearers:
One of the best things I've ever done for myself is have a set of bifocal safety glasses made that focus at 24" for the main part, 12" for the bifocal. First, they are nicer than putting safety glasses over my regular glasses and second, I found myself tipping my head up to use the close focus in my regular glasses. Now I look straight at my work.
I use vinegar for most of my light rust issues. The best stuff I've ever used was XO-Rust by Kano labs. Tools soaked in that came out a bit gray from being stripped and had to be oiled right away or they would start rusting - no oxide to protect them.
I think that the lesson here is that when we buy Chinese import metalworking machinery, the mindset has to be that it is a kit. If you want it working perfectly when you get it, buy a good older lathe from a reputable machine rebuilder or a used lathe from someone upgrading.
Keeping the perspective of the value we are getting for our money, a bit of sweat equity is realistic. Of course if something clear and obvious is wrong, the dealer should replace the parts. From what I have seen, this is where the better resellers like Grizzly are consistent and the lower end like HF are not. I'm not saying that you can't get good service from a local HF store or even get help on the phone from HF, it just lacks consistency. The price you pay for the extra savings.
If you do get a local HF store manager who is helpful, be sure to let them know how much you appreciate the real service you get.
I did some wood turning on my Logan 11x24 until I converted another lathe for that purpose. Some things I learned:
#1 biggest - Lubrication is different. My metal lathe has way oil on the bed, oil everywhere like holy water. My wood lathe I use one of the dry lubes since wood dust will wick up with the oil, make a mess under the carriage and generally gum up gears. Be sure all gears and lead screws are well covered. Expect a full cleaning every time you go from wood to metal and back. Wish you bought two lathes, huh?
#2 - metalworking chucks are dangerous to fingers. In woodworking, your fingers are much nearer the chuck. The jaws are almost invisible at higher speeds. Look at Penn State or one of the other woodworking catalogs to see the difference.
#3 - you need room to move the tools around. I've got a set of mini tools that would probably work well on the c0 - my bigger lathe tools would be hard to use.
#4 - Be sure what you use for a tool rest is adjustable and sturdy. You don't want it to move into the wood - things happen fast and your hands are right there.
#5 - Woodworking tools must be very sharp. You have to learn how to sharpen. Also, many woodworking tools are sold unsharpened.
#6 - Wood flexes more than metal. Expect to be using the tailstock a lot.
#7 - Unless you do just pens, you will really like the variable speed since you will turn a lot of different diameters.
That's all the motorcycle is, a system of concepts worked out in steel. There's no part in it, no shape in it, that is not out of someone's mind — number three tappet is right on too. One more to go. This had better be it — .I've noticed that people who have never worked with steel have trouble seeing this...that the motorcycle is primarily a mental phenomenon. They associate metal with given shapes...pipes, rods, girders, tools, parts...all of them fixed and inviolable, and think of it as primarily physical. But a person who does machining or foundry work or forge work or welding sees "steel" as having no shape at all. Steel can be any shape you want if you are skilled enough, and any shape but the one you want if you are not. Shapes, like this tappet, are what you arrive at, what you give to the steel. Steel has no more shape than this old pile of dirt on the engine here. These shapes are all out of someone's mind. That's important to see. The steel? Hell, even the steel is out of someone's mind. There's no steel in nature. Anyone from the Bronze Age could have told you that. All nature has is a potential for steel. There's nothing else there. But what's "potential"? That's also in someone's mind! — Ghosts"
Buying used equipment
When I look at used equipment, the first question is 'do I want it?' It seems obvious but sometimes I get wrapped up in the bargaining and forget that I really want a QCGB. If I don't want it, am I going to try to sell it for a profit? Part it out and keep some of the accessories? Is it really worth the effort? Does it just seem like fun but I don't really need it?
Once I know my motivations, I try to decide whether the condition is reasonable. Assuming that I still want it, there are a couple of paths. If it is 'make an offer' and the person doesn't know what they have, I usually offer about half of what it is worth on the open market, explain that it might be worth more with some work. I figure that they are getting a reasonable price without doing the research and I am getting a bargain. I never lowball someone who doesn't know what they have. Besides, if they think you are ripping them off, they can easily walk away. Once you offer $100 for something they think might be worth $1000, they aren't going to believe any offer from you.
If there is a price on something, it can be reasonable or not reasonable. If it is too high and the person knows what they have, you are probably done. If it is too high and they don't have a clue, it can be worth educating them. Honestly. If you show them flaws like a worn bed, an honest person would prefer to sell it to someone who understands the flaws than to take advantage of someone who doesn't. So, I make what I think is a reasonable offer, usually leaving some room to compromise with them. I almost always pay in cash and make it clear that I'm ready to close the deal and pay them immediately.
A wise friend of mine (who was selling used cars at the time) told be a 'good deal' is when both parties are satisfied. It can be a good deal, personalized service, whatever, but they both get what they want. It can be a great deal from one point of view (I bought one of my Logans for $175) as long as the other person is satisfied. I'm not one to walk away from a great deal but I didn't counteroffer and he was satisfied. He even tossed in some extra stuff after the deal was done.
Lanturn/Rocker Tool Posts
As a new lathe user, I have to admire the rocker toolpost design (although you couldn't pry my QCTP out of my dead hands). There is an implied understanding of the tool bit geometry and required cutting angles that says a lot to me about the expertise of the machinist. Think about it. As you position the tool you are adjusting the overhang, tool height, relief angle all at once and very dependent on the grind of the tool. Me, I like consistent carbide inserts that are always at the right height in my QCTP. I'll use a honed HSS cutter (in the QCTP) for final clean cuts for things I want to look pretty, but that is set up once also.
The same is true with DROs. Machinists have a relationship with backlash that I don't have the time or inclination to develop.
Credit Card Purchases
Remember, in the U.S. if you buy with a credit card you ultimately have control over the transaction. You can call the CC company within a reasonable time (30-45 days?) and state that you didn't get what you ordered in working condition, you have tried to rectify the problem (keep dates of the conversations and emails) and you would like to withhold payment to the vendor.
That simple. The amount is credited back to you and the vendor has the money withdrawn from their account.
Now you are dealing from a better position. You can be helpful and rebox their broken saw, you can offer to send photos of the packaging if they want to pursue a shipping claim, you will swap in replacement parts that they ship, etc, but they won't get the money hold released until you have a working saw.
I don't do this unless a reasonable attempt to solve the problem fails but it does work.